Fellow Nurses: How Do You Handle Backstabbing Nurses and Adm?

[Edson!]

If you have been in the field for a while, or even not that long, really, (Isn't that sad?) you have probably seen backstabbing, misrepresentation or distortion of information to hurt another nurse, or the process of throwing other nurses under the bus. How have you handled these situatutions or how do you think they should have been handled?

[Frankreich]

If you have been in the field for a while, or even not that long, really, (Isn't that sad?) you have probably seen backstabbing, misrepresentation or distortion of information to hurt another nurse, or the process of throwing other nurses under the bus. How have you handled these situatutions or how do you think they should have been handled?

Wow, what happened to the positive Edison? I've noticed a significant change in your posts. You were one of the more positive posters albeit a little zealous at times.



I for one have rarely seen nurses treat each other badly and I've been in the field over 31 years. I'm a firm believe in the statement "you reap what you sow". Not everyone always agreed with me or like me but I never expected them to.

I recommend have self respect and respect for others. The rest will fall into place.

Nursing has been very good to me and I continue to recommend the profession.

[oldntiredRN]

Frankreich- I wish to address your statement "you reap what you sow" I don't think anyone "deserves" to be abused. Abusors( bullyies, mobbing) seek and find some one they feel are more vulnerable I don't think they ask for it. Therefore I have a difficulty with that statement in this conversation. I am not so fool hearty to think every one needs to agree with me- That is the only way you learn is by being able to listen to other points of view. I could not have been an agency/traveler nurse if I wasn't willing to listen to other ideas and ways. I think the situations that Edson and I have been speaking(posting)out against are deliberate acts of demeaning, ridicule, backstabbing, isolating,running a coworker off the floor or out of the facility(hospital or otherwise), relentless criticism(the nothing that a person ever does is right) tattletailing,the dirty looks, the snear(the "Oh, you again" attitude),the "don't help her/him(I have seen it done to the him's-alot). We are not talking about the good natured teasing- that if the group leader sees the object of the teasing getting upset, would stop., and genuinely appologize.

I don't know what part of the country you are from- I'm from the mid atlantic notheast( NJ- just out side of Phila.) and things here are pretty ruff, fierce and cut throat competitive. Here, people have always clawed their way to the top, but more so with the ecomony. Maybe that is the difference- the part of the country. The comb of crowding and the sudden drop in economic resourses in a group of people who were used to having more. The economy has not been so good here- like all over. In my neck of the wood- it is pretty commercialized. HAD alot of businesses-not so anymore. The businesses have left NJ- too expensive.. People were used to a very expensive standard of living- they never wanted for anything. Their homes, their cars, their clothes were over the top. They were spoiled rotton with the amenities they had and could afford just minutes from their door. Movie theaters, designer shopping, higher end restaurants, clubs, theater, art museums. "Disposable income" was flying high here. That has changed- now many have to scrimp, and it's every man for himself. Put's me in mind of the old movie"Escape From New York".

This past summer I saw a father and his 2 young kids walking past my driveway at dusk - with a grocery filled shopping cart! I was stunned. To be putting people out of a job for the ridiculious reasons these NM's are, is beyond words. There are homeless camps in the woods around here- Mothers with children who I've seen walking a narrow dirt path along a busy highway to the Shop-rite because this grocery store has a cheap cafeteria. And her gaze never looks up at the traffic just up far enough to keep an eye on the kids so they don't get hit by a car. I do not live in the city- I live in the suburbs. There is no sence of neighbor-never has been. That may not be so true in less crowded, more rural areas, where neighbors have the tradition to help each other, know each other, have to rely on each other- throught the storms of mother nature and man made disasters. Their way of Life probably prepared them better, made them better able to cope with less economic resources. NJ has no coping skills, just greed, and cast of those who seem more vulnerable.

My family was a military family- we lived in many states- mostly New England and even abroad. My parents hated NJ for this very reason. My ex-husband is from western Pa. He had difficulty adjusting to what he called "very cold people" These attitudes are even more so with the economy, and the nursing managers are appauling- the tactics and behavior are like nothing the word "Nursing" brings to mind. We have a saying around here "Hide your beagle, Vic's an Eagle" well, the same is true for our nurse managers, HR depts and administration. They enjoy a good blood bath. They are pit bulls with nursing licenses. They are not going to stop the" nurses eating their young"- they enjoy it too much.

[OBNurseJeanne]

I agree with Frankreich and she said it far better than I could.

I don't know how you can generalize that nurse managers, HR people are so contemptible, OldTired. People are people. 90% are good and kind. Your experience has not been mine at all. Although I am old and tired I am thankfully not bitter. I look back on my years in nursing as the best, most rewarding years of my life and would not hesitate to recommend it as a career.

[peady2]

My experience in nursing has been like Jeanne's and Frankreich's. Maybe I have been lucky, maybe people treat me the way I treat them-with kindness and respect. I work hard, don't think any job or task is beneath me (hey if they want to pay me close to 50 bucks an hour to empty trash, I don't care!), do my best to be a team player and try to include everyone in the fun times. I like people and most like me back. On the whole, nursing has been very good to me.

I agree that nursing admin is often out of touch with the daily reality of bedside nursing and HR people have no clue. Have I ever been treated unfairly-of course, but this is hardly unique to nursing or even the heathcare profession. I wouldn't work in a non unionized facility-not saying unions make it perfect or even close but they are there to assist you when needed, and are great at leveling the playing field and cutting through the bullshit.

Edson has been saying some version of this post for years-I just never agreed with her as it has never been my experience. Isolated incidents here and there, but I was mostly able to work them out. There was only one unit I ever worked on in over 20 years where I felt the group was a clique and I was an outsider. They were never mean to me personally, I just noticed they were less than helpful to me and other newcomers. I was never able to "kill them with kindness" as I had elsewhere. So I solved that by moving to a different unit-and letting the nurse manager know why. Problem solved-for me at least, because I have no idea if the behavior continued. I didn't like the unit-probably because I didn't like the people-and I had little time invested there so no great loss. I am a firm believer in not hanging on after exhausting all means to reconcile a situation and so I moved on fairly quickly. I also never found it difficult to get a job-and my facilty has no problem with new RN hires, so lack of jobs has never been my experience. I'm not saying that one can get the perfect job right out of the gate, but there are jobs to be had and I see them filled from the outside on a regular basis.

As for old/tired, I find her continued negative harangue to be inappropriate and out of line, sometimes bordering on the bizaare. If I were a new nurse or a new comer to this BB I would be quite turned off of this profession and as such her posts do nothing to advance the positive aspects of nursing-and there must be some since she states she has been a nurse for many years. Her bitterness is surely what is keeping her from finding employment-and to be frank I am quite surprised that the admin at this BB allows some of her worst posts to stand. The generalizations are ridiculous-as are most such generalizations-and sometimes outright mean. The name calling is uncalled for. And I must say that I genuinely like my nurse manager (and can say that for about 75% of the managers I had). But not one has been my friend because I don't believe in being "friends" with your supervisor. I was almost in the situation where a friend was thinking of applying for our vacant NM position and I was uncomfortable with this-but thankfully she decided it wouldn't work to supervise friends and turned it down.

I live in the northeast, as well, in an affluent suburban area quite close to NYC. The people here are friendly and pleasant, although it is dificult to get to know your neighbors if you don't have small kids and meet them at kid's activities. That is because most families have both people at work all day, and while the economy hasn't been great here, the vast majority work regularly. I have seen people get fired over the years, but never once did I feel it was without cause.

As to the OP and how I handle the occasional backstabbing that occurs? I handle it as I do any hurdle in my life-head on. I usually confront the person, set the record straight and move on w/o holding a grudge. Letting go of anger and bitterness is the key to a happy life I believe. I highly recommend it.

[peady2]

BTW, Edson, I would appreciate it if you would remove the last word of your tag line. It was only written to cause trouble and that person doesn't seem to be posting here any longer, anyway.

[Edson!]

Wow, what happened to the positive Edison? I've noticed a significant change in your posts. You were one of the more positive posters albeit a little zealous at times.



I for one have rarely seen nurses treat each other badly and I've been in the field over 31 years. I'm a firm believe in the statement "you reap what you sow". Not everyone always agreed with me or like me but I never expected them to.

I recommend have self respect and respect for others. The rest will fall into place.

Nursing has been very good to me and I continue to recommend the profession.

HI Frankreich:

Nah. I am glass half full person. Still, I am realistic and call things as they are. Any negative karma is not due to me. I give everyone respect and the benefit of the doubt...and I have done so taking on a price to me. Giving folks the benefit of the doubt can kick you in the arse, but if it is part of your belief, then you do it and accept that it may end up hurting you. It can be the price you pay to live by what you believe. It is an imperfect world. People are imperfect and complicated.

This isn't an isolated phenomenon...especially in nursing. Many, many nurses will admit that it is a very backstabbing profession. What is popular now is to hide or be subversive with the acrimony, finding ways to justify the horizontal or vertical violence while looking like it's "the right thing to do" somehow. Lots of games like this. It's one strong factor as to why a good number of nurses have left or are leaving nursing. Sadly, I don't see it changing, cause generally that would mean those in administration and those with real influence in the field would not just state they are against such behaviors, but they would work positively to stop them. But see, often they service someone's agenda, so they roll with it, if not outright embrace it while espousing peace and harmony in public forums.

[Edson!]

to peady:

Huh?

[Edson!]

Frankreich- I wish to address your statement "you reap what you sow" I don't think anyone "deserves" to be abused. Abusors( bullyies, mobbing) seek and find some one they feel are more vulnerable I don't think they ask for it. Therefore I have a difficulty with that statement in this conversation. I am not so fool hearty to think every one needs to agree with me- That is the only way you learn is by being able to listen to other points of view. I could not have been an agency/traveler nurse if I wasn't willing to listen to other ideas and ways. I think the situations that Edson and I have been speaking(posting)out against are deliberate acts of demeaning, ridicule, backstabbing, isolating,running a coworker off the floor or out of the facility(hospital or otherwise), relentless criticism(the nothing that a person ever does is right) tattletailing,the dirty looks, the snear(the "Oh, you again" attitude),the "don't help her/him(I have seen it done to the him's-alot). We are not talking about the good natured teasing- that if the group leader sees the object of the teasing getting upset, would stop., and genuinely appologize.

I don't know what part of the country you are from- I'm from the mid atlantic notheast( NJ- just out side of Phila.) and things here are pretty ruff, fierce and cut throat competitive. Here, people have always clawed their way to the top, but more so with the ecomony. Maybe that is the difference- the part of the country. The comb of crowding and the sudden drop in economic resourses in a group of people who were used to having more. The economy has not been so good here- like all over. In my neck of the wood- it is pretty commercialized. HAD alot of businesses-not so anymore. The businesses have left NJ- too expensive.. People were used to a very expensive standard of living- they never wanted for anything. Their homes, their cars, their clothes were over the top. They were spoiled rotton with the amenities they had and could afford just minutes from their door. Movie theaters, designer shopping, higher end restaurants, clubs, theater, art museums. "Disposable income" was flying high here. That has changed- now many have to scrimp, and it's every man for himself. Put's me in mind of the old movie"Escape From New York".

This past summer I saw a father and his 2 young kids walking past my driveway at dusk - with a grocery filled shopping cart! I was stunned. To be putting people out of a job for the ridiculious reasons these NM's are, is beyond words. There are homeless camps in the woods around here- Mothers with children who I've seen walking a narrow dirt path along a busy highway to the Shop-rite because this grocery store has a cheap cafeteria. And her gaze never looks up at the traffic just up far enough to keep an eye on the kids so they don't get hit by a car. I do not live in the city- I live in the suburbs. There is no sence of neighbor-never has been. That may not be so true in less crowded, more rural areas, where neighbors have the tradition to help each other, know each other, have to rely on each other- throught the storms of mother nature and man made disasters. Their way of Life probably prepared them better, made them better able to cope with less economic resources. NJ has no coping skills, just greed, and cast of those who seem more vulnerable.

My family was a military family- we lived in many states- mostly New England and even abroad. My parents hated NJ for this very reason. My ex-husband is from western Pa. He had difficulty adjusting to what he called "very cold people" These attitudes are even more so with the economy, and the nursing managers are appauling- the tactics and behavior are like nothing the word "Nursing" brings to mind. We have a saying around here "Hide your beagle, Vic's an Eagle" well, the same is true for our nurse managers, HR depts and administration. They enjoy a good blood bath. They are pit bulls with nursing licenses. They are not going to stop the" nurses eating their young"- they enjoy it too much.

This is dead on. . .especially geographically. . .very cut throat. . .and in pretty much all areas of nursing.

Generally the leadership is what you have said, but that is b/c they can be this way even more than ever in light of the economy. Shoot, even when the economy was better good leadership was hard to find. I can count a few truly good, objective managers on one hand.

You are callling it as it is, and some may not like it.

Finding a solution is proactive, but what is workable, truly, in this general climate?

Some of the things you are speaking of could STOP, IF leadership were wiser, but no. They encourage these foolish behaviors and the underhanded acrimony.

Nurses could be conscientious, bright, caring, sweet as pie. Still, there is an excellent change they will end up feeling the whip of what you are talking about. Those that "don't" generally are not folks that are really into what they do or going the extra mile, or they are those that in fact initiate such baviors--presumably for their own survival or advancement. It becomes very much a process of "If you can't beat them, join them." It's like the women that are cheated on by their spouses and they justify their breaking up other relationships and marriages, b/c afterall, they were screwed. . .so. . . Somehow their reasoning of two wrong making a right is their way of dealing. It only adds to the toxicity.

It makes no sense to deny the issues, unless you have given up and feel like it will never change so. . . .you go into "survival" mode, or you generally enjoy the evil antics--some folks truly do believe it not--after all; it's drama for their sorry lives, OR for whatever reason you have not been scathed by the antics or are somehow oblivious to them. (But then how could you miss seeing your fellow nurses get scathed by them. . .and then just turn the other way??????)

All abuse must be confronted. The person being abused should not be councelled to just look the other way, and it will all disappear. It doesn't disappear. There is indeed almost always a price to pay for freeing folks from abuse. Geez, there are still people today that say >six million Jews and other souls were not destroyed in the Holocaust, believe it or not. And even at the time, many did not want to accept or believe it.

What has been going on in nursing is an atrocity of sorts. As long as people deny the toxicity, it cannot get better.

[peady2]

to peady:

Huh?

Acting disingenuous has never fooled anyone. If you say you are not, then please explain what the "last word" (i.e.Texcop) of your tag line means.

[peady2]

I am not saying that I don't see dysfunction in nursing. Any profession that requires a person to be a caregiver-often at the expense of themselves-as well as being comprised of mostly women who are more submissive as a gender, is bound to have people that are unable or unwilling to put themselves first in their personal lives. So I see a lot of dysfunction.

However, in both my professional and personal lives I am neither dysfunctional nor submissive. I demand respect at all times and I get it. I have had people remark to me that they don't understand why so and so seems to treat me differently than they do others. It is because I won't tolerate anything less. I truly have never been the victim of bullying. I have had the pleasure of working with many nurses on several units where we functioned as a team-and despite often working only part time, I was made to feel like a respected member of that team. Have I seen incidents of bullying, horizontal violence, toxic nurses? I have but for the most part it was not a "gang behavior"-it was limited to one person. I am aware that workplace violence and bullying are concerns being written about in nursing journals, but I have not seen it from my peers. Doctors, yes, an occasional nurse manager, yes. But to generalize as you and tired are doing? No, that has not been my experience.

I will say that while I find your posts about this subject puzzling, since I have not had that experience, I find tired's posts to be mean, vindictive, and harmful to nursing as a profession. That is because in this case you have made your opinions known appropriately while tired is obviously bitter and has begun to sound paranoid and bizarre with all the name calling, posturing, advice to call all sorts of government agencies, legal people, the media etc.

I have seen nurses "eating their young," so to speak. Some people are not cut out to be teachers and mentors. I have always advised those nurses to just "opt out" of preceptorship. Where I work now we have a voluntary preceptorship program where you go for training and are paid a bit extra to precept. The preceptor is evaluated by the new nurse at the end of orientation and the bad ones do not continue in the program. It ensures that both nurses do their best to make an orientation work.

As I said before, if you experience backstabbing, or bullying, confronting those people usually works as most bullies are also cowards and go for where they smell blood. And working only in a unionized facility ensures you will be heard when it is the admin doing the bullying.

Finally, I just don't believe these behaviors are limited to nursing. I just think that nurses have a harder time dealing with it due to gender issues and personalities.

[peady2]

There is an excellent article in AJN about "relational aggression" aka "bullying." It encourages the reader to look inward to determine whether or not his/her behavior can be construed as bullying. It lists types of people who are more prone to being bullied and how it can be best handled. It is obviously a problem, whether or not some of us have personally experienced it. I just don't believe it is limited to nursing. Nor do I believe that nursing necessarily wants to address the issue, as borne out by the following quote from the article:

Although the dynamics of relational aggression have yet to be fully elaborated, it's my belief that such aggression often occurs within, rather than between, groups-as is the case with nurse-nurse bullying. And it's not clear that those affected want help in addressing the problem. Judith Briles, an author and expert on workplace issues within health care environments, has stated that her offer to help one nursing organization deal with nurse-nurse bullying was pointedly rejected; I have had similar experiences.

From : http://journals.lww.com/ajnonline/fu...nurses.28.aspx

Too long to post here, but I urge you to read it, I found it to be very informative.

[Edson!]

Well howdy doody. I hope the hating isn't continuing.






"It encourages the reader to look inward to determine whether or not his/her behavior can be construed as bullying"

Sounds a little like blaming the abused. Sure some folks set themselves up by being enablers. None of us is talking about that. . .at all.

Blame the abused is easy-how easy is it to kick a dog when they are down.

I am sure the article has some merit and has its place; but it is not what some of us are talking about. You can take anything to another extreme in order to make it seem "justifiable."

When and if the economy recouperates, you will see tons of folks flying out of nursing. So much of it is a game that we are all expected to play, and anyone that has been in the field for a while knows--whether they admit to it or not.


Someone pm'd me about finding proactive ways to fix the problem that we all knows, and this person knows, exists. Sadly there are no easy fixes--especially when a number of folks with influence within the "profession" deny that there is a problem. Denial never fixed a thing; yet it seems to make some feel good, at least for a time.

The sad reality is that it's not about the sky falling. Truth is, way things are now, there is no sky--only illusions of sky.

[peady2]

Obviously you did not read the article because in fact it supports a lot of what you have been saying. I won't deny there is bullying in nursing-I just haven't had the experience, for whatever reason. Sure people have tried but I always put them back in their place. And I must say the bullying was not peer related-it was from higher up. I just don't see it as a pervasive issue in my area.

I also don't believe that it is a factor related to a nurse being unable to find a job, as some here seem to think.

Finally, it is interesting but not surprising that you profess ignorance of what I am talking about, but then when I spell it out (i.e. Texcop) you ignore it and the tag line remains intact.

[Edson!]

For heaven's sake. . .It's the This is truth Texcop that has your undies bunched? For crying out loud. I took it out, even though if Tex is still around, remember that she initiated the in-signature slights. I was simply answering her w/o being slamming--as she was towards me. In short, it was a cordial reply to her in-signature slam. Stating that freedom once lost isn't generally regained is a truthful position based on honest, historical analysis.




No admittedly, I did not read the whole article, as I am catching up on some work.

The issue isn't about the "RARE" case of bullying. In fact, nowadays it's all MUCH more sophisticated cloak and dagger antics. We all see it going on. We're not idiots. It's gotten so bad, generally I'd advise all nurses to closely watch their backs.

Also, I'd advise to always have another position, like per diem, pool, agency, etc.
The key in this field is to stay afloat--particularly if you are NOT one of the types that adopt the "Eat or be eaten" mentality. I refuse to become like that.